Reservation- the ideas and arguments..

The last blog “Stop the Bloody Reservation!” attracted a few thoughtful and fierce comments and arguments on the link that I placed for it on Facebook. Thought I should put the discussion here:
P. Tuli:

This is one of the many issues that disturbs me.
being brought up in delhi and having educated parents i was not aware of this casteism and i was yards away from all this discriminations.
I have many gòod friends with whom i eat play and used to even sleep at their houses. Not aware of and not wanted to know their castes untill this mandal Commission thing was introduced.
i still remembered how in a short time we became “aware” of each others castes.
and some sense of superiority was infused within us to combat the frustration of being denied the special status of some reservation caste.
being coming from a middle class and aware of the fact that my father cant buy me a medical seat, I immediately become against the special status given to my collegue and friend who lives in a bigger house, travels by big cars and have all the resources in the world say like buying any books or joining any tutorial courses.
I am Not an constitution expert neither do i have any solution to all these problems but i could clearly see that such things are politicaly motivated and in no way bridging the social divide.
Personally i am not a casteist And believes that reservation in todays form is not doing gòod to the society,whatsoever
Bhavin (me):
I agree with you Pankaj Tuli, you wouldn’t notice the extent of the problem if you are in an educated middle class in a metro. I have spent my school years in 5 different places starting from remote humble village in coastal Gujarat and ending up in Ahmedabad via Lucknow, Bhavnagar etc.. and have experienced and perceived the problem to different levels of severity and extent at different places.
You didn’t understand castes untill Mandal times- I was made aware of where I belong in Class 2 by my teachers.
I agree- Mandal was a completely different cattle of fish- I was talking more about the castes that are Discriminated against- not the Mandal commission that brought a wide array of people with variety of social and economical reasons under the reservation. The Mandal- related reservation was ofcourse misused in the worst ways possible. I know people rich enough to buy a school obtaining fake certificates of belonging to ‘Non Creamy Layer’ and poor deserving candidates left out because they couldn’t Buy such certificates.
The intentions behind the origination of caste based reservation were welfare oriented, and they were expanded and then turned out-right political after Mandal.
There are no fool-proof ways of making sure that the well intended laws are used for greater good in an immature democracy like India. We will have to live with imperfect laws and their intentional abuse by the powerful. I will so like to see reservation abolished within my lifetime- but the way I’d like it is when they stop having a column for religion/caste in all the education/employment related forms and then everyone will have a level playing field. This doesn’t seem to be a priority of any present political party- with the Government going for a Caste based census this very year in India. This will again refresh the awareness of casteism and feeling of either superiority in some and entitlement in others.
G. Tomar:
if we leave the superiority – inferiority issue, which has been there in india since ancient times ( hindu culture based on brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya n shudra system) , i think we each had some such people in our mbbs batches who wudn’t have been there if there wasn’t any reservation. i see those people sitting in America today because they got admission in MBBS n they reached there coz they became capable due to reservation. So though the system is exploited by 80% but if it benefits 20% its worth it for them. regarding discrimination…. it can’t be solely attributed to reservation …. it is the indian mindset……in metros its more between rich n poor as experienced by Mr. Tuli n myself n in small cities where the economic divide is less its by caste. we indians live in eternal comparison with those around us n by comparing we become superior or inferior ourselves……..
M. Dave:
I support; stop this nonsense system of treating upper caste as unwanted issue. In which other country do you see caste based reservation? If you want to develop, if the country at all want to progress these system has to stop; otherwise ……. the result is what you can see what our govt. today is.
The few examples you gave in the blog; well India is a big country and many things and events happen everyday; the only unfortunate fact is when its related to any lower caste or sort of; it SURE GETS PUBLISHED AND TALKED ABOUT. Many incidents must be happening the opposite way, they don’t get published and not come to your notice. Its all politics my dear, its only the continuation of divide the authority want to stay, just to get votes of undivided lower castes and to stick to their seats.Let enything happen to the country, eligible candidates of non dalit group or whatever, continue with the bloody reservation; ONE DAY THERE WILL BE BLOODY REVOLUTION.
Bhavin, you remember when we were studying MBBS 2nd or 3rd year, somebody in Mumbai had desecresated some *&lit diety’s statue and what had happened all over India; Every now and then statues of Mahatma Gandhi gets desecrecated everywhere, nobody cares; why coz it doesn’t carry any vote, nor it gets published or remembered, nor it gets into anyone’s blog………
Bhavin (me):
You are getting the drift but in a wrong way. The Upper castes being Unwanted is not a problem at all- Its the very existence of the feeling of any bloody caste being upper or lower at all in this day and time. Reservation will only end in a reasonable way when you’re ready to Loose Your Caste and the attached so called sense of superiority and bigotry.
When you say “In which other country?….” I again suggest you read the whole blog and its links- there is a link there that has a list of all the countries that have Reservation type programs- Including USA, Australia and others.
If this country has to progress, it will have to take the whole population along and make the poorest and most backwards population along and make them contribute actively to the country’s working. The only way to promote this is by giving them a chance at education and hence reservation for the one’s who are backwards in education. If vote-bank and pleasing the reserved castes was the only priority of the policy-makers, they could have suggested no or low taxes for them rather than chance at education- would you agree to that?
Don’t blame today’s Government and it’s inefficiency and corruption on the Reservation system. Manmohan Singh is not a PM on a Reservation seat, Sonia is not the Incharge of Congress in a Reservation seat, neither are Kapil Sibbal, Pranab Mukerjee or P. Chidambaram. If you think it’s the Reserved castes that have elected the Government- I say still the 60% majority of India belongs to Non-Reservation castes who also are responsible for voting for this government- or for not voting and letting it be.
It’s not that the caste based issues are Over publicised in media- they are actually very severely under-publicised. I’d like you to back up your argument by showing me any case where someone was being victimised or discriminated for being Brahmin or Baniya in India.
Eligible candidates of Non-Dalit castes aren’t Denied any opportunity- Around 200 out of 240 seats at the BJMC are theirs to take- aren’t they? The deserving candidate of any caste I don’t think suffers, Its the below average candidate of a upper caste who is not getting a seat who blames a below average candidate of a lower caste for getting a seat. It’s like being sad for other person’s happiness rather than being sad for one’s own failure. You are a bright Brahmin candidate- and you got into BJMC and became a good doctor- didn’t you? Did the reservation stop you from being the good doctor you are today?
Don’t think there will be a REVOLUTION against reservation in India anytime soon- it’s been tried before with no avail many times, and the upper caste middle class majority of India has far too much to loose!!
Yes- I remember the riots and violence that followed the desecration of Dr Ambedkar’s statue somewhere. I don’t support any riots or violence for whatsoever reason, but if you compare Gandhi to Ambedkar- Gandhi didn’t really belong to a segment, caste, religion and so it wouldn’t kindle anger in anyone- except hardcore Gandhians- who wouldn’t go for riots understandably- don’t you think?

M. Dave:

Seats Available for open merit gujarat students at BJMC

Total seats 250

seats going to All india PMT 15%

Reservation : Schedule caste : 7%
Schedule tribes : 15%
SEBC 27%

count…………. it comes around 135-140

Bhavin (Me):

So do you want to oppose 15%PMT quota too? Mr. Bayramjee Jeejibhoy didn’t dedicate the college to upper class of Gujarat. It’s a medical college affiliated to a University receiving central government grant and thus following national laws regarding PMT seats and reservation quotas. Don’t be too much impressed by Raj Thakrey.

And about caste based reservation-BJMC statistics are not different from any other institute in India-so what’s the point?
Quota leaves ~127 seats for the Non-reservation castes. This makes the 128th candidate really upset- but if they make it a 1000 seat medical college, 1001st candidate is still going to be upset. This 128th person then gets angry against reservation- so it’s the below average of upper castes that loose- not the so called ‘Bright Career’.

Answer me this- Would you be happy if there was no reservation and BJMC only had 127 seats- all on general merit?

Life can’t be fair to everyone- get used to it!

K. Salunkey:

I have always looked at this issue from the other side as 50% of the total seats being reserved for general merit category! and every other group gets much less reservation than the merit group..now I know you will tell me about competition within groups etc we can have that discussion another day….